We are two women from different
worlds with very different experiences. I, Annie,
have performed in, directed and produced pornography
for twenty five years. Mae Tyme has been anti-pornography
for equally as long. We met at a lesbian video night
several years ago. You might think that we’d
be enemies, because we have such different viewpoints.
Could we come together to record a conversation,
share our ideas, and show that women of desparate
backgrounds and beliefs can communicate and collaborate?
Annie: Don’t
you think it’s so totally interesting to
see people naked, or to watch them having sex?
Mae Tyme: I
used to play a game as a kid called Peeping Tom
in my suburban neighborhood. I was forever peeking
into people’s windows. I hoped I would see somebody
naked. I never did. It wasn’t a sexual
kind of thing, it was curiosity. All I saw was
women cooking and doing dishes, and men watching
TV or working in their garages.
A: I
don’t remember seeing any adults naked
until I was 17, and saw my boyfriend. After
that I was hooked. I wanted to see naked people
all the time. I was instantly fascinated by
genitalia. Here was an entire secret universe!
A year later I ended up in pornography and
prostitution. I’m still
busy looking at genitalia.
M: I
saw my grandmother naked quite a bit. It
didn’t
involve sexual feelings. I loved watching her come
out of the shower and put on her corset, and powder
her face. It made me feel close and accepted. Later
in college I always loved watching girls get dressed
up for dates. I’m sure that some of that was
sexual, but I didn’t realize it at
the time.
A: So,
you are aware of people’s
basic desire to see
other people naked.
How did you get to
be so anti-pornography?
M: Seeing
someone naked was always sort of serendipitous.
It wasn’t something I cultivated deliberately
to get turned on, or to try to turn them
on. It might have had a sexual result, but
not a sexual purpose.
A: Hmmm,
basically I don’t see anything
wrong with cultivating sexual excitement.
M: I’ve been a lesbian since I was
twenty-one. In my thirties, feminism came along. Then I moved into radical
lesbianism. I have not related intimately with a male in I can’t
think of how many years. I have seen some
males naked at nude beaches, and actually
that has served to demystify and depowerize
men. So when I feel oppressed by the patriarchy,
I sometimes just conjure up some of the images
I had of males on nude beaches and laugh.
A: Partly
why I went into prostitution was that male
genitalia was such a big mystery. Now I’m
busy unraveling the female genitalia mystery.
M: I remember
a woman coming to a women’s
event and she showed slides of ‘beaver’.
It was hard for me to look at the photos.
Even though I had been a lesbian for a long
time and had been going down on them, and
had been gone down on and saw them all the
time. But looking at them in pictures was
really icky to me.
A: Betty
Dodson tells the story of being at a NOW
sexuality conference in the ‘70’s
where she did a slide show of vulvas. Half
the women walked out.
M: What
feminists didn’t take into
account was that although most of us had done consciousness raising and had
intellectually looked at issues about sexuality and decided that we don’t
smell like tuna, and all this stuff, it was still hard to deal with the actual
experience of touching our own vulvas, of looking at ourselves with speculums,
and looking at pictures of “down there”.
A: Don’t
you have any male friends?
M: My consistent
bonding and involvement with other women,
especially lesbians is so fulfilling, inspiring
and growthful to me, that even if I felt
OK about men, which I don’t, I wouldn’t
have any time for them.
A: To me pornography is any photo, film
or drawing that shows hard-core explicit sex. How exactly do you view pornography?
M: As something that is overwhelmingly by,
about and for men. It is a world wide industry that generates gazillions
of dollars every year from which women do not benefit.
A: In porn films female performers get paid
a whole heck of a lot more than the male performers.
M: I didn’t know that. I’ve
always viewed pornography as an aspect of oppression of women, not of our
liberation. And I view the nuclear family pretty much that too. So I’ve
tried to develop a sexuality that isn’t
about men or what they want, but is entirely
about women and how we relate to each other.
A: Presently
I’m actually interested
in trying to do the same thing. Would a typical
sex magazine just totally turn you off?
M: Yes.
I am trying to learn what sex is about for
a free and voluntarily participating woman.
My view has been that all women that do pornography
are either terribly misinformed, or they’ve
been enslaved. You tell me that’s not
true at all. That being in porn can be liberating
and profitable.
A: I agree
that we all have a lot of programmed ideas
about what is sexy. I get irked. Oh God,
not another white teddy. There is plenty
of room for porn to be more creative, experimental,
feminist, and more erotic for women. But
it’s harder to create that than you might
think. That’s the challenge I love.
M: If I were to make an erotic video it
would it probably be boring to someone else. I did have an experience of
a lover of mine videotaping us making love, and then we watched it.
A: What.
I’m shocked! YOU made porn?
M: I didn’t think of it as porn. It
was deeply thrilling, because watching it made me remember the feelings and
it was wonderful. If someone else watched it, they probably would be uninspired.
We were lying down, holding each other, and moving together, with enormous
sexual and love energy between us. There wasn’t any sucking or licking,
or fingers. There were no toes curling. Well that’s
not true. My toes did curl. It certainly
had nothing to do with costumes, lights,
props, or plots.
A: Did you ever show it to anyone?
M: No.
A: Oh come on, Mae. You could sell it! Think
of the money you could make. The people you could inspire. You could pioneer
a whole new genre.
M: I talk
about this only with other lesbians. It is
very challenging for me to consider revealing
this in a context where men have access to
it, and where women might exploit it. It’s
giving personal information to the enemy.
A: If you
were a communist, you probably wouldn’t
have a problem telling people you were a
communist.
M: Oh but I
would. You can be arrested, threatened, loose
your job, things can happen to you if you say
too much of your truth to the wrong people. As
a radical lesbian I must exercise great caution
not to compromise or endanger myself or my sisters.
What lesbians do in bed is inflammatory. Lesbians
have been assaulted and killed because of what
we do sexually. I’m reading a book called
8 Bullets, written by the survivor of a lesbian
couple shot by a man on the Appalachian trail.
One was killed. Men hate lesbians because we
have sex and life without them.
An aspect of porn that is so
distressing is child slavery. Girl children--or
women who are trying to look like girls-- shaved,
infantilized, tiny, etc., are used to entertain
men who are basically getting off on trying
to fuck little girls. Incest is the paradigm
of patriarchy. The latest figure from the
FBI even, is that three out of four girls
is sexually molested by the age of 18. How
can we possibly discover our own sexuality
when it has been conditioned into us since
we are infants?
A: By learning
more about sex. And by making our own porn.
You realize that child pornography is the
number one argument that is consistently
used against all of us decent pornographers
who are simply trying to make people feel
good and turned on. There’s maybe .01%
of porn made which involves children, and
it is pretty underground. I challenge you
to find any commercial child porn sold in
a store anywhere in the USA.
M: Look at all
the stuff on the internet.
A: A huge child
porn industry doesn't exist really in the way
lots of people think it does. At least I've not
encountered one in recent years. There used to
be stuff for sale in European shops decades ago.
But not any more.
M: That’s like saying the holocaust
doesn’t exist. They’re busting
men who are meeting kids on the internet
to try and have sex with them.
A: Yes, unfortunately
that is true. But I think most of the pictures
of nude 10 year old girls that you can easily
find on the Internet were put there by the FBI
to entrap pedophile
M: I believe
that child porn happens all the time. And your
experience says it almost never happens!
A: It
happens, but in suburban peoples garages and underground
in a very illicit way, or in other countries,
or created by a few criminals, but not as a huge
commercial industry that's out in the open. Although
I haven't looked for child porn. At least I haven't
run across any child porn industry while being
in porn myself. This is the most difficult subject
of all to talk about.
M: In 1995,
there was a big story when I was in Europe about
two girls, ten and eleven years old, who had
escaped from a porn ring. They’d been kidnapped.
The porn ring was busted, and they discovered
other girls who had been starved, beaten and
enslaved.
A: That’s
horrible.
But once I was making a little sex magazine with
some friends, as a labor of love, not a big money
making thing. We unknowingly hired an undercover
police woman to be our typesetter. The people whose
house it was had two kids, who were not involved
in any photographs. The parents made a living making
magazines from pictures that people sent them. Twenty-five
state police officers came into the house with guns
drawn, arrested us and confiscated everything, from
tampax to the dog’s leash. In the family photo
album there was a photo of the two kids in the bathtub
naked when they were three and five, the same photo
every family has. The newspaper headline said “INTERNATIONAL
CHILD PORNOGRAPHY RING BUSTED”. The two kids
were put in dreadful foster homes for several weeks
which really traumatized them. That’s when
I realized how much the press perverts the facts,
and how sex negative attitudes are used to hurt innocent
people.
Every time I do a lecture at a college or a reading
at a book store, with my good intentions, inevitably
this scary topic about children being abused comes
up.
M: The same thing
is used against lesbians. We are called child molesters.
Undercover police used to bust us for what we were
doing innocently, good heartedly and among adults.
We view ourselves as nice people. We point out over
and over that most molestation of children and others
is done by straight males.
A: I’ve
been putting out sexually explicit images of myself
for years. I know this sounds bizarre, but somehow
it makes me feel safer.
M: Being very
out as a lesbian makes me feels safer. I think
blatant is best.
A: Aren’t you “putting information
into the hands of the enemy” by being
an out lesbian?
M: I’m out so that other dykes will
recognize me. I don’t do it to annoy
men.
The truth is that you and I do view pornography very
differently. You view it as an avenue to independence,
joy, freedom, fun...
A: ....education,
harmony, a creative outlet, a safer world...
M: I view
it as reinforcing destructive sexual response
patterns. If women get any joy and freedom
from it, it’s
an accident.
A: I think you
are a good teacher for me, because you have developed
a type of sexuality that is more egalitarian,
sensitive, subtle, less costumey and performative.
Its deeper, no pun intended.
M: You’re
a good teacher for me, because you are developing
concepts of energy and teaching women about
female ejaculation, about self pleasuring,
dispelling shame. But when it gets to be
part of the porn industry, I absolutely view
it as part and parcel of the patriarchy.
A: You cannot
deny that there is an energetic/erotic/sexual/sensual/emotional
exchange with virtually everything and everyone
on a daily basis. People try to deny that,
but denial only goes so far. It’s a natural law of
the universe and biologically programmed. If a child sits on your lap and
touches your hair it can feel very erotic. Some adults simply don’t
know how to handle the feelings.
Feminists say that rape is an act of violence, not
an act of sex. I think it is also very violent sex.
M: It doesn’t
have to do with sex. It is about power and
dominance.
A: But it is
still sexual.
M: No. It’s
about fear and terror and coercion.
A: I agree.
But its also misdirected sexual energy.
M: Lets
go back to the kid who plays with the hair.
The kid likes the feel of the hair. The adult
likes having it’s
hair touched. That is freedom and exploration. But if the adult makes that
activity something else, like “come up on daddy’s lap honey,
touch daddy’s hair honey’, that
is training the child to provide sexual pleasure
for the adult. That is inappropriate and
wrong.
A: So we need
to train people how to be...
M: ...sexual
in joy and freedom and love without imposing
or coercing others and without using it for dominance.
A: I’m
there with you.
When I worked as a prostitute, I specialized in handicapped...
M: Differently
abled.
A: Right. I
had guys who had been in wars and were horribly
scared or amputated, or in wheel chairs or whatever.
During pillow talk it would sometimes become
obvious that some of them had killed people.
Several admitted to me they had erections while
they were killing.
M: It would
be better to not call acts of violence sex.
A: You’ve
got to give people an exciting alternative.
M: An exciting
alternative without violence.
A: I’d like to make a great line of
pornography that would inspire people to have more loving, satisfying, healthy
sex which would in turn make the world a better place. If no pornography
was allowed, I wouldn’t get the opportunity to do that. Romantic love,
sexual feelings and physical intimacy are the most pleasurable things in
many people’s lives, next to eating
chocolate cake.
M: We have
been trained to believe that sex is the most
important thing in life. I don’t believe
that.
A: I think of
our sexualities as a treasure trove of of possibilities.
To give and receive love, maintain good health,
relieve stress...
M: There are
other ways to experience fabulous intimacy, beauty
and joy. For example, art, friendship, athletics...
A: Athletics?
Yuk! Church maybe. Singing, chanting, dancing,
doing ritual maybe come close. To see a fantastic
stripper is an awe inspiring experience. It is
to witness the Divine Feminine. It is prayer.
And what often surrounds erotic dancers? Drunk,
cigarette smoking, disrespectful, bad mannered
guys waving measly dollar bills...
M: ... and waving
measly dicks.
A: Pornography,
in it’s purist form,
could be a path to enlightenment.
M: I doubt
it. . When I hear the word porn, I think
of something that is male yuckkiness and
lines men’s pockets
with money... and semen.
(We both laugh uproariously.)
A: Ah, yes,
good laughgasm!
M: Porn
is a pocket issue! (More laughing.) I haven’t’ laughed so hard in I don’t
know when.
A: Me too.
This was a very intense conversation. I’ve always dreamed of having this conversation and never even came
close. Everyone I’ve ever met who is
anti porn would never even sit down at the
table with me. Except my mother. Oddly enough,
I have never really felt that women against
porn were my enemies.
M: I’ve never had the desire to sit
down at the table with a pornographer and have this discussion, but I’m
glad to be having it with you. Getting to know you has created trust and
that is very precious. By the way, many feminists who are anti porn don’t
see the women in it as the enemy either.
A: No, they
see us as victims. We don’t
want to perceived as victims.
M: A conversation
like this is possible when each of us has
freedom of expression and no one is required
to change. I don’t expect you to become anti-porn, and you don’t
expect me to become pro-porn.
A: It’s
been wonderful. Thank you.
(Big hug.)
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