This interview
took place in 2001.
It was a lovely
spring day. Linda Montano made
a delicious potato soup and Indian
spiced tea. We brought chocolate
chip cookies and apple pie with
whipped cream. After we got all
our personal news and gossip out
of our systems, Linda led us in
a relaxing meditation. Then we
put on the tape recorder to chat
about our many years of collaboration.
GABRIELLE
CODY: Annie,
how long have you and Linda known
each other?
ANNIE
SPRINKLE: Well,
I met Linda when she was in her
yellow year. That's how I count.
How many years is that? Red, Orange,
Yellow, 85, 86 ... 87. That's fourteen
amazing years, plus maybe about
a hundred past lifetimes.
BARBARA
CARRELLAS: Annie
and I met at the New York Healing
Circle in 1988.
AS: I
met Barbara a year after I met
Linda. Barbara and I were lovers
for about three days.
She showed me where my G-spot was.
BC: When
did you do Summer Saint Camp with
Linda?
LINDA
MONTANO: That
was the summer of 87 wasn't it?
In 1984, on December 8th, I began
a performance titled, 14 Years
of Living Art, based on the Chakras
or Hindu energy centers inside
the body. Having studied meditation
with my guru, Shri Brahma-nanda
Saraswati, founder of Ananda Ashram,
Monroe, NY, I always found his
teachings on the Chakras very exciting
and I wanted to experience each
energy center intensely, so I concentrated
on one each year wearing the color
associated with the Chakra and
performing private disciplines
which focused my attention on the
Chakras' qualities. Two aspects
of the experience were public:
my seven-year, monthly visits to
the New Museum, where I did one-to-one
Art/Life counseling with visitors
who came to my window installation,
and the two-week Summer Saint Camp
that I conducted for seven years
at the Art/Life Institute, Kingston,
NY. Luckily Annie and Veronica
Vera saw my ad for Summer Saint
Camp in Franklin Furnace's bathroom
and came to the Art/Life Institute,
and we had an incredible, intense
meeting of minds, hearts, and bodies
and intentions and friendship.
For each of the seven days, we
explored one of the Chakras; it
was friends being together, that's
what the Summer Saint Camp was
about. And it began a love that
has grown, and I consider Annie
beyond the beyond. There are no
words for our friendship.
AS: I
first learned about Linda Montano
in my History of Performance Art
class (with Cathy O' Dell at the
School of Visual Arts) and was
totally turned on. I did my term
paper on 'Sex in Performance Art,'
and I included Linda because I
thought that her work was incredibly
erotic, in a subtle way. During
that first fertile week, the seeds
were planted for what was to become
my first one-woman show, Post-Porn
Modernist. Linda baptized me an
artist. And I fell madly in love
with her. After my parents, Linda
has been my biggest influence,
and my greatest inspiration. She's
absolutely hands down my favorite
artist. Whenever I see something
she's done or written or performs
I'm just touched beyond words to
the depth of my soul, in every
pore.
LM: Well,
on that theme of collaboration,
it feels like there is a Siameseness
with us and Barbara and all of
us. We extend each other. Annie
permissioned me to go into areas
that were locked and forbidden
and tabooed. And the encouragement
to sacralize the first and second
Chakras with her, with her blessing,
basically changed my work considerably
and my direction. So it's really
a sisterhood that was born. And
Annie's gift is collaboration and
being a community maker and a taboo
breaker, and it has changed my
life. I can't take seven steps
without seeing the influence of
her work. One of the most outlandish,
the most wild, groundbreaking things
we did together, the three of us,
Annie, Barbara and I, is that we
stormed Texas with the unspeakable,
with material that's absolutely
sacred but dangerous.
BC: Was
it performance art or was it just
a group live sex show?
AS: That
was the MetamorphoSex project.
LM: I
feel every woman on the planet
would benefit from the kinds of
places that Annie and Barbara are
able to take them, and it's about
not just performance, it's about
ritual and it's about initiation,
which are central to our growth
and to our passage to the next
step of maturity. And until our
bodies and our costumes and needs
are ritualized and initiated by
wise women, there is going to be
a lot of misdiagnosed, and misapplied
performance.
AS: Do
you remember when we went to the
Hell Fire Club [an S/M club]? What
did we do there? Somebody wrestled
but I can't remember, was it you
and me, or Susun Weed and Barbara?
BC: I
remember liquid Crisco oil.
LM: Remember
the human pony?
AS: I
delighted in taking my guru, my
mother superior, Linda, an ex-nun,
to places she wouldn't normally
go. I took her to a friend of mine's
whorehouse, and on a tour of 42nd
Street peep shows and porn palaces.
I took you to Plato's Retreat,
a huge swing club...
LM: That
was my favorite. And then you took
me to the lap dance place. And
I was very like: 'Annie what should
I do now? Should I sit? Should
I stand up now?' One of the things
I'll never never never forget -I
think it was Plato's Retreat -
it was walking in and having a
waft of red energy, but it had
no thorns in it, everyone was there
consenting to be there. Everyone
was there for the same purpose.
It was so hot and so heavy.
AS: Just
as I took Linda into the underworlds
of the first and second Chakra,
she gave me permission to go into
the heart Chakra, and my more spiritual,
priestess personas, and to bring
those into my work/life. Which
is what I think took me out of
commercial sex work, into a much
broader world. I went from a one-Chakra
world to a seven-Chakra world.
That was tremendously liberating
for me and deeply satisfying. She
took me to a Zen Buddhist monastery,
to the university she was teaching
at, and to the Ananda Ashram. We
spent about nine New Year's Eves
at Ananda. We did a ritual every
New Year's Eve, sometimes with
vibrators and sometimes without.
She's been my guide into all kinds
of important life stuff. Now she's
guiding me into the worlds of menopause,
financial frugality and death.
LM: And
we can't forget the years you would
invite not only me, but four hundred
thousand, million, trillion of
the most unusual, wonderful, free
beings in the world, who came through
your doors in New York City. It
was extraordinary. It was two rooms
and a bathroom and a small kitchen
that became the richest, most creative
rooms in the world. They were temples,
they were studios, they were photo
studios, they were performance
studios, they were the center of
your writings, of your photography,
of your love, of your people, and
a permission to celebrate life.
One of Annie's incredible talents
is organization. And an ability
to transform spaces through four
ounces of effort, but tremendous
energy. One of Annie's teachings
is 'magnificence of heart,' compassion.
BC: Your
apartment would be littered with
newsletter makings. And then you'd
go, 'Oh sorry I forgot to mention
I have a photo session this afternoon.'
Suddenly, the bed would come apart,
pieces of plywood were going down
the hall. So inherently theatrical!
And there always seemed to be enough
stage-hands. Then, the more people
arrived, you realized Annie's attention
did not become diluted, but rather
the whole experience was enhanced.
And even if you didn't particularly
like someone ... you'd realize
they had something to offer you...
You never left without learning
something, or having a creative
idea.
AS: Well...
Linda of course introduced me to
the idea that life could be art,
and life could be performance,
and I think that was important
key information for me.
BC: Linda,
let's face it, you're one of the
wackiest artists who has ever lived.
And wacky means anything can be
art. You gave us permission to
be artists. Annie, I've never seen
you cry as hard, laugh as hard,
feel as cosmically light or physically
dense as I have when you are in
Linda's presence. And I've seen
you absolutely tear your guts out
working with her, and float working
with her. It's such a big experience
for you, that it seems to take
in all of your being.
AS: Yes.
She spins all of my Chakras.
LM: Transgressive
people doing transgressive work.
I don't know if I could come under
that category, but I know Annie
and Barbara do. And it's a ministry,
it's a sacred calling. And in India
they would be honored as those
saints that touch the Tantric world
of opposites, where there is no
good or bad, there is just the
calling. And it's been at a price,
a very, very high price. And we
all go back to our blood families,
and we pull out those personas
that we have to pull out to be
around those people, and then we
integrate them back in and go back
out and do the calling or the ministry.
AS: I
think that our work together has
not been focused on career or money
or whatever. It's really been using
sexuality as a theme to help us
all grow and learn. In the workshops
and performances we facilitated
together for ten years we saw some
incredible magic, beauty, truth,
acceptance, transformations ...
so rich...
BC: I
think because the trust between
us is very strong.
AS: Barbara,
let's talk about your background.
BC: I
went into theater when I was fourteen.
Because it was erotic, it was powerful,
it changed the way people felt
and acted. I was always drawn to
doing plays with sex in them. Tennessee
Williams was my absolute favorite
because of all of that smoldering
heat. I was trained at Trinity
Square Rep Company before there
was a conservatory, when you just
went and soaked it up. Fast-forward
in time. I had a business where
I was general managing Broadway
shows. At first we were doing a
lot of 'high art' in commercial
theater. We premiered Wendy Wasserstein's
Uncommon Women, Cloud Nine and
A Coupla White Chicks and the Broadway
musical Nine. As the 1980s went
on and the big British invasion
created mega-musicals, the objective
was to dazzle not to move people.
And by 1988, I had come to the
end of a chapter when I was the
executive producer of Colleen Duhurst
and Jason Robards in Ah Wilderness,
and Long Day's journey.
1988 was a pretty dark autumn. AIDS took many of my theater friends.
I had been working with Louise Hay's philosophies for some years
and I found this group based on her work. Bing bang boom, I'm at
the New York Healing Circle and this wonderful, childlike spirit
with red hair and something fluffy and polka-dotted caught my attention:
'Annie Sprinkle!' I knew her because I was a porn fan. We got to
know each other better at Joseph Kramer's Tantric Group Rebirthing
ritual, where you breathe rhythmically for three hours straight,
at the end of which you tense your whole body, and let go. The
Big Draw orgasm was very, very hot.
Annie was doing her Post-Porn Modernist show at the Harmony Burlesque.
I went and I thought, 'That's it! That's what I want! That's what
I haven't seen in so long, that's what I'm looking for, that's
what we should be doing.' Everything changed. January of 1990,
the show was being presented at The Kitchen. I went as often as
I could to help. For instance, Annie's altar wasn't rolling on
stage properly. So I invited the owner of one of the huge Broadway
scene shops to come see this wonderful show. The next day he delivered
free casters that made the altar work. I would watch the audience.
Literally guys with AIDS would walk in leaning on people, and leave
under their own steam.
I left my general management firm, and set up shop with another
woman [Denise Cooper], and in 1991 we produced Post-Porn Modernist
in a New York run commercially. We started managing a handful of
performance artists. It was clear that artists like Annie couldn't
expect any funding from the government without hideous strings
attached. It became my intention to help Annie and artists like
her: Lipsynkca, Miss Coco, Shelly Mars, Penny Arcade. I learned
how to help artists become commercial successes, if they were ready
for it.
I couldn't believe the effect Post-Porn Modernist had. Annie was
getting offers for a lot of gigs. She was trying to do it all herself
and needed help. For me, it was really important that Post-Porn
Modernist really look right. So that when she was showing her cervix
or peeing or masturbating, which are scary things that can look
very dirty, it all looked theatrically professional.
AS: Barbara
negotiated excellent contracts
for me ... She was great at getting
really good money. She brought
me up to a professional level.
BC: Annie
brought me here to Linda. I was
terrified to ask Linda if I could
come to Summer Saint Camp, because
I was not an artist, I was just
a manager. Annie got me my artist
back. She helped me get my courage
to ask Linda, who said 'yes.'
What was really rewarding was watching Annie make that transition
into believing she could act, and becoming a heartfelt actress.
There were points in Post-Porn Modernist when things were happening
100 per cent in the moment. And others that she never could have
done six times a week if she hadn't learned to act.
AS: I
didn't know what the fuck I was
doing.
LM: I
would like to ask a question. How
do you feel, as artists, that we
can affect or effect the need of
young women to become initiated
without guidance? And how do you
feel that performance art ... how
can we head our work in the direction
of even a more cross-generational
healing?
I'm thinking of those who are called to make gestures that are
particular to their own genetic and/or personal evolution and of
when they are taken out of context and imitated by another generation,
without either the confines and/or the safety. Is there a way we
can 'Take Back the Night' in terms of what we've put out? How can
we keep it sacred for those who will be misled by not seeing it
correctly?
BC: In
other words, why did you lose your
teaching job and tenure? Someone
who didn't see MetamorphoSex, or
maybe just heard about it, thinks
we were doing something we weren't,
and they are going to try doing
the same thing, but they didn't
have any idea what it really was
about. And then it becomes a live
sex show.
AS: We
have to let them make their mistakes.
I did a visiting artist presentation
at NYU yesterday. This student
comes up to me at the end and she
says, 'Yesterday I did a dance
piece to your video Zen Pussy and
no one will speak to me any more.'
She was devastated. I gave her
my phone number immediately, and
said, 'Call me, I'm here to support
you.' I've made plenty of similar
kinds of 'mistakes' in the past.
We learn from them.
LM: That's
absolutely true. But I think what
I'm addressing here is that they're
going into places that they may
not be ready for, or for the responsibilities
of having gone where they went.
Or have the strength to take some
of the censorship of where they've
gone. Or have the maturity to...
AS: But
that happens in porn and prostitution
all the time.
LM: OK.
One thing is, I have some reluctance
to go the San Francisco Art Institute
this semester because of a particular
incident that a professor had in
his class that became a kind of
talk-show controversy. I am really
at a place in my post-menopausal
stage of life — and it's
either coming from proximity to
blood family or a complete closing
down of all permission slips, or
a punishment of myself for not
having any kids, and then over-indulging
them in strict morals — that
I don't know what I would say if
I went and did something at the
Art Institute and saw some of those
people. I don't know if I'd say
'Let's stop now.' Or 'Bravo.' Or
'God, you still have your job.'
Or 'What is this all about.' Or
'Let's do it differently so we
can initiate ourselves differently,
so we don't have the consequences
of censorship for having explored
real time, real space, real bodies,
real flesh and real issues.'
AS: You're
talking about the '**** factor.'
Gaby, that's a phrase we coined
to describe something like Murphy's
Law, but it's specifically people
oriented. It's about when people
throw a big wrench into the works.
We did a workshop and there was a woman named **** who seemed to
have had a wonderful, positive time. Six months later, after talking
with what must have been a very sex-negative therapist, she decided
our work had not been a good thing for her, and she felt that she
had gone too far. She sent a very accusatory letter to everyone
who had been in the workshop. We had created such a safe space
and gave the women plenty of choices. But the work could be challenging.
So later this woman freaked out and felt she had been exploited
and violated. I was devastated. So, we retired our wonderful project
in which twenty-four women were transformed for ever for the better.
To continue the project seemed too huge a responsibility and risky.
And it had been the best thing we had ever done together.
LM: I'm
also addressing a call to future
permissions, for me and for all
of us, that if we are true to the
calling, then we're willing to
take risks even when we're in the
presence of our non-community.
We have to be extremely strict
with our futures and proceed according
to the truth, and take the consequences
of our choices. Every action produces
a reaction. What can we live with?
What can we risk?
BC: ****'s
change of heart affected Annie
deeply. I had taught so many sex
workshops at that point I was used
to the fact that there are a few
people who want to be right and
others who want to be happy.
lm: I think these **** factors are sacred clowns, and I guess I'm
calling to myself for more courage. To not be frightened by the
clown, the Giuliani clowns, the police clowns, the censorship clowns,
the lawsuit clowns...
GC: The
academic clowns.
LM: Yeah.
I had a hard time. I'm trying not
to whoop my muse into submission
or silence. And yet, also evolve
into the next step which may not
look like what I've done before.
I'm not sure it that's coming from
damage control or evolution of
vision, or pure cowardice. I think
it's the computer. What has happened
is that fathers and grandfathers
are hanging out in places that
their grandchildren and nieces
and nephews are hanging out in
in real time, real space, and real
flesh, and real issues. And the
incumbent shame of persona-change
chat rooms, diversions into what
they consider deep-down morally
destructive to themselves and the
culture, is then transposed. So
I think people are working on Annie
Sprinkle's level, but they're doing
it at different times, different
places, with different permissions.
The ones who are doing it in real
time, and obviously have been taught
by her how to work that way, are
up for a certain level of censorship.
AS: The
fact that I could be invited to
go to NYU as a visiting artist
and show a bunch of porn, and get
paid for it, blows my mind. I couldn't
do that even five years ago. It
would be too controversial. Now
it seems there's far less controversy.
When I carne on stage at NYU, these
twenty-year-old girls were applauding
wildly. That is shocking, because
I come from a place where it was
old guys in raincoats applauding.
My audience is now twenty-year-old
girls! They may spend more time
on their computer. But they're
doing sex research. Maybe they
won't be performance artists, or
sex workers, but it will happen
on Internet sites. It's going to
take different forms.
I have a question. As we get more well known, how do we stay humble
and modest, and not get self-absorbed and stuck in our own PR legend?
LM: Visit
your mother more. Blood family
is humbling.
BC: I
seldom get fed up with people who
are searching for something higher.
Annie you're on a quest, on a mission.
When you do something 'for yourself
it winds up helping two hundred
people.
AS: Thank
you from the bottom of my heart.
Without Linda and Barbara, I would
certainly not be in this Critical
Performances book series. And Gaby,
thanks for creating this opportunity.
Perhaps we should each do a summation.
LM: I'm
looking forward to more Art/Life
adventures with this Catholic woman
Barbara here, and this incredible
soul sister Annie. We invite the
readers to create, appropriate,
beneficial, well-intentioned experiences
in Art/Life that lead to higher
consciousness.
BC: Annie
keeps me dangerous. I hope she
does the same for you.
GC: May
I quote: 'You are dear, divine,
and very very pure. Let no one,
no thing, no ideal or idea obstruct
you.'
AS: How
do I lose twenty pounds of ugly
fat? And can you pass the chocolate
chip cookies please?
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